What if your money problems weren’t just about willpower, but about who you are? In this episode of Sorry, I Missed This, Cate chats with Ellyce Fulmore, financial educator and author of Keeping Finance Personal, about how who you are affects how you deal with money. We cover how things like ADHD, race, gender, and queerness all shape your money habits. Ellyce explains how to understand your own “money story” and why some advice doesn’t work for everyone. We also talk about what happens when someone with ADHD gets into a relationship and has to mix money with a partner.
What if your money problems weren’t just about willpower, but about who you are?
In this episode of Sorry, I Missed This, Cate chats with Ellyce Fulmore, financial educator and author of Keeping Finance Personal, about how who you are affects how you deal with money. We cover how things like ADHD, race, gender, and queerness all shape your money habits. Ellyce explains how to understand your own “money story” and why some advice doesn’t work for everyone. We also talk about what happens when someone with ADHD gets into a relationship and has to mix money with a partner.
Related resources
Timestamps
(00:00) A word from Cate on ADHD and money
(02:44) The intersection of identity and finances
(07:57) Balancing treating yourself and impulse spending
(10:13) The word “should”
(14:09) Shame, guilt, and embarrassment about money
(17:50) The ADHD tax
(20:42) ADHD and finances in a relationship
(25:05) Ellyce’s advice for starting to think about your money story
(26:58) Outro and credits
For a transcript and more resources, visit the “Sorry, I Missed This” show page on Understood.org.
We love hearing from our listeners! Email us at sorryimissedthis@understood.org.
(00:00) A word from Cate on ADHD and money
Cate Osborn: Hi everybody, and welcome back to "Sorry, I Missed This," the show where we talk about all things ADHD, relationships, intimacy, and communication. It's me, your host, Cate Osborn. And today's episode is about our relationship to money.
When I started "Sorry, I Missed This," my idea was that I wanted to explore ADHD and relationships. And for a really long time, I defined relationships intrapersonally, right? Our relationship with our boss, our spouse, our kids, our parents.
But as the show has grown and as the topics have expanded, I've realized that there are so many more relationships in our lives. And money is a really tricky topic for me. I have a lot of shame and guilt around the ways that I have accumulated debt, about the ways that I have overspent, about the ways that I have compulsively spent. And when I started doing research, when I started trying to understand where those behaviors were coming from, what I found was really interesting.
A lot of women with ADHD struggle with finances. We struggle with impulsive shopping, with compulsive shopping, even shopping addictions. And so I thought, why not do an episode about that? Why not break the stigma and talk about money with Ellyce Fulmore? I am a huge fan. You are going to figure that out very early in the podcast.
Ellyce is the author of "Finance for the People," a book that at its core is about our relationship to money and the stories that we tell ourselves about money. She has done a ton of work fighting for neurodivergent people to have access to better education and better ways of learning about money. She has developed entire courses that are geared towards people with ADHD and helping us navigate those tricky places around spending and impulse shopping and planning a budget, which I don't know about you, is really hard for me.
And so I'm really excited to open this conversation up because money is tough. Money is ubiquitous. Money is something that we have to have in order to exist in our society. But it's also something that we don't talk about a lot, and we don't talk about the ways that our ADHD can impact our relationship to money. And so I'm really excited about this episode. This is one that I've been wanting to do for a really long time. And so without further ado, here is Ellyce and I's conversation about money here on "Sorry, I Missed This."
(02:44) The intersection of identity and finances
Cate: Hey, Ellyce. Welcome to the show.
Ellyce Fulmore: Hey, thank you so much for having me.
Cate: I want to jump right into things. And a lot of times on "Sorry, I Missed This," we talk about interpersonal relationships. We talk about bosses and coworkers and parents and kids and partners and all of that stuff. But you focus on a very different type of relationship. You focus on the relationship between an individual and money. And can you tell me how that got started? What made you interested in that? And what that relationship can look like? That's like a seven-part question, but just, you know, go off.
Ellyce: So how I got started with all of this was I actually was doing a degree in kinesiology, and my focus was on adapted physical activity, so working with folks with cognitive and physical disabilities. And when I graduated, I got a job at a rec center in the financial aid office. And throughout that job, I had the opportunity to speak to so many people and hear so many different experiences of folks who were essentially trying to access recreation because they didn't have the financial means to pay full price.
And so they had come from just so many different backgrounds. A lot of them were immigrants. There were people who were recently incarcerated and people who are struggling with addiction. And these stories, they just changed my view on money completely because I was the person who struggled with my finances throughout university because of my undiagnosed ADHD, and I really struggled with impulse spending.
And I really believed that it was a me problem, that I just wasn't motivated enough. I just didn't know what to do and that everyone else around me seemed to have it figured out, but there was something wrong with me. And when the pandemic hit, I was laid off from that job. And during that year, I also came out publicly as queer and was diagnosed with ADHD. So like, then I had these big pieces, like these big awakening, I guess, of my own identity. And I started to realize like, holy shit, ADHD is affecting my money so much. Being queer is affecting my money so much.
And so that's like why I focus so much on how your identity intersects with your finances and how all these unique aspects about who you are and how you were raised and how you move through the world actually impact everything that you do with your money.
Cate: So the obvious follow-up question, I think then is how does ADHD, how does being queer, how do those things relate to money, relate to our finances?
Ellyce: Oh my gosh, in like every single way. So in the sense of any sort of like mental health challenges, that obviously impacts the way that your brain processes information, thinks about things, the way you process emotions, that type of thing. So with ADHD, we all know that executive functioning is a struggle. And so executive functioning is involved in so many aspects of your finances, like paying your bills on time, remembering to show up to an appointment and not get a late fee or a cancellation fee, organizing where your money goes, like setting up automations, you know, planning a long-term goal. Like all of these things.
And then there's also something that we experience a lot, which is called delay discounting. And it has to do with essentially we want dopamine, which I'm sure everyone listening to this is like, we know this. But that makes it so that we really overvalue immediate rewards and we undervalue long-term rewards. So that makes it really hard to stay consistent with long-term goals like paying off a lot of debt or saving up a lot of money or investing for retirement because you're not seeing that progress really along the way. You're not getting a dopamine hit until you've completed it.
So we're more likely to be like, "Well, I'm just going to spend that money that I was saving for a new vehicle on this like really cute sweater that I want instead because that's going to feel good in this moment and like it can take me years to do that." And it's not necessarily that it's like a conscious decision that's happening. It's just that your brain is like, give me dopamine right now in the fastest way possible.
And then impulse control kind of plays into that as well. Obviously shows up in things like impulse spending, but it also shows up in just like a lot of decisions we make that could then end up having financial repercussions down the line because we're just making these decisions more quickly without necessarily weighing all the consequences. And then on a bigger note, you mentioned like the queerness and how that affects your money. I think with that and other pieces of your identity, it just, it really impacts how you view the world.
And that kind of impacts how you think money should be spent or not spent. It impacts how people treat you, which could impact your ability to get a job, your ability to rent an apartment, your ability to, you know, do different things if you are experiencing oppression for any of those identities. I know for a lot of people, it doesn't feel like money is that personal and like emotional and connected to everything. But it just truly like who you are is going to be reflected onto everything you do, like your career, your friendships, your relationships, and that includes your relationship with money.
(07:57) Balancing treating yourself and impulse spending
Cate: I think sometimes it is okay to want that healthy dopamine reward, right? Maybe you buy yourself something nice, maybe you take yourself out for a nice meal, order takeout, take the stress off or whatever. How do we as ADHDers, how do we navigate the, I want it now, I'm looking for that dopamine, and moments where that might be healthy, that might contribute to making our day a little bit better, a little bit nicer, and now I'm entering a spending spiral because maybe if I keep consuming, the world won't be on fire.
Ellyce: Yeah, I 100% understand the spending to cope because that was like my life for so long and like still is. Like I'm not going to pretend that I don't still impulse spend, you know, it still happens. So my advice is to build that into your financial plan. Like plan for the fact that you are going to impulse spend.
So how this works for me is I have one, a monthly allowance that I give myself that is like my money to spend on like fun stuff, anything I want. And I put no restrictions on that money. So that amount, you can determine what you can comfortably afford within your budget. But I transfer that onto a separate card that is my spending card. And I basically am putting up more physical barriers. So it's harder for me to like access other money. And then I give myself, yeah, no limits, no guilt on this. I can buy whatever the heck I want.
And then the other thing that I do is I actually have what's called a sinking fund, which is, it's a savings account essentially, but you put a small amount into it every single month and then you kind of end up with a nest egg over time. So I have a sinking fund specifically for impulse spending. So I'll put in like $5 to $10 a month, like something small that I, you know, wouldn't notice too much. And then on times where, you know, all this shit is going down in the world and I'm like, I really just need to buy whatever it is, or I need to start a new hobby immediately to distract myself, I have this impulse spending fund that if I end up going over budget, I can use that to kind of cover, you know, what's going on. So I call it my, "oh shit" fund.
Cate: I'm picturing like a big red button in the box and you open it, you're like, time to start a new hobby, like slam the button down. I like that immensely.
(10:13) The word “should”
Cate: One of the things that I loved about your book is that you talk a lot about the word "should." Can you talk to us about the word "should"?
Ellyce: Yes. So a lot of people obviously struggle with this, but I think especially when you're neurodivergent, you've spent your entire life trying to fit yourself into this neurotypical box. And that just brings on so many extra layers of shame and so many extra layers of "shoulds" because you're constantly telling yourself like, "You should be able to do this. Why can't you do that? Like everyone else can do this. You should be acting like this."
And that's a narrative I feel like that a lot of us have taken on and it affects our life a lot because even when you get a diagnosis and you, you know, you're accepting it and you feel like you're making a lot of progress, it still comes up so often. I actually talked about it in the book that I've been able to kind of dismantle this for money, but then when I was writing the book, I found myself really beating myself up because I couldn't stick to what I thought a typical author writer schedule would be.
And I didn't even make the connection until I was doing a book event and someone asked me a question about it and I was like, "Oh my God, you are so right. Like the thing I'm like helping people get through with money, I was doing that to myself with writing."
Cate: We hear these messages around money like, just track every penny, just start a savings account, that kind of thing. But those shoulds and justs really often backfire for ADHD brains. And so I'm wondering if you have strategies that you've found in your work working with ADHD clients writing your book that tend to work better than those hard and fast, no, you have to do it this way. What works for ADHD brains?
Ellyce: My whole goal of talking about ADHD and money is to really help people who are neurodivergent like reframe how they think about these tasks. So one of the things I say is stop trying to force yourself to do something that you don't want to do, and instead try to make everything something that you want to do.
So basically what that looks like is trying to inject dopamine into these financial tasks so that you actually are, maybe not like excited about it, but you feel it's easier to start because there's some sort of draw for you. So I'm a big fan of gamification, where there's a reward or it's literally like a game board or like I have a Taylor Swift themed savings tracker with like all the albums and you know, stuff like that.
So like, that works for my brain because it's like fun to create that and it's fun to color it in. If you like bullet journaling, that's also like a great way to do it. So basically just like thinking about the things that you like and also if you have any other systems in your life that are remotely working for you, think about what is it about those systems that works.
So, you know, maybe you will only remember what groceries you need to get if you write them on like your fridge. So then if that's the case, maybe you start writing down like the bills you need to pay on your fridge. So like trying to kind of work with your brain instead of actively fighting against it and find ways that these tasks make sense for you. And basically just like forget about what anyone says about how you should save money, how you should pay off debt, how you should budget. Like there's so many different ways to get there.
And I feel like that is what my degree has really taught me. Like working with folks with disabilities, like the whole job was essentially adapting different tasks and skills and activities. And what always mattered at the end was the outcome. You know, could they play the sport they wanted to play? Could they move up and down the stairs on their own? That was all that mattered. It didn't matter how they got there. And I feel like that's the same for ADHD and money.
(14:09) Shame, guilt, and embarrassment about money
Cate: One of the first times, casual hair flip, that I was mentioned in the New York Times was an article that they did about how women with ADHD have higher rates of compulsive spending issues and higher rates of debt. And they just happened to mention my work in this article. And I made the absolutely stupid mistake of reading the comment section.
And that was when I learned that a lot of people have a lot of opinions about ADHD, a lot of opinions about what quote unquote "responsible spending" looks like, what, you know, being an adult looks like, on and on and on. So every time I talk about money, I always think about that comment section, and I think about shame and guilt and embarrassment around struggling with money.
Because I struggle with money. Like I have read your book. I am doing the work. I try really hard, but I still do. I struggle with my finances a lot. And I do carry a lot of shame and a lot of guilt around that because why can't I just, why can't I just get it together and all of those things? And so I'm wondering if you can speak to a little bit of that shame and that guilt and how that shows up in our relationship with money.
Ellyce: First off, I want to say that I have the same experience as you with the New York Times and the comment section. And I actually made a video with some of the hate comments. They were so mean. And I was like, why do people just go on the internet and be mean? I don't get it.
Cate: Absolutely brutal.
Ellyce: And I think it taught me really that people still don't understand what ADHD is or how it affects people. So with the guilt and shame, I think, you know, a lot of that stems from us as a society, like not talking about money, but then simultaneously placing so much importance and value on how we manage our finances. And if you are feeling that way, that is completely understandable. And it's frustrating that a lot of times when you do open up, if it's not to someone who is like a safe space and can kind of understand what you're going through, that you can be met with a lot of the shoulds and the justs like, "You just need to do this. And this helped me so much." and like, you know.
And it's so easy to convince ourselves that we're the only ones struggling. And I did the same thing. Like when I was in the worst of my debt and impulse spending, I was convinced that all my friends were doing amazing. And like, you know, they're inviting me out to dinner and I'm like, I can't afford this, but they obviously can. Like they're managing everything. And it wasn't until years later, like probably five plus years later that we actually had a conversation. And it was like, "Oh, we were all struggling." But like nobody wanted to talk about it. But if we had just talked about it, then we could have done free activities together instead of going out for dinner.
So it's a frustrating thing and something that I feel like we can all work to dismantle. And you know, if you are nervous about talking about your situation, like start small. You don't have to, like share everything. I know we're chronic oversharers, but if you don't have to spill all the beans right away if you don't want to. Like even just talking about money in a way that's not connected to you personally, that can help. Like asking your friends like, "Oh, what credit card do you like using?" or, "Are you saving for anything right now?"
So small conversations like that may feel less scary to dive into than like, how much debt are you in? You know? So starting with that at least gets you a little bit more comfortable with the topic of money. And then I feel like that opens things up and gives permission to the people you're talking to to also maybe share a little bit about what they're going through and then like little by little, you start to break down those walls and realize you're not the only one struggling.
(17:50) The ADHD tax
Cate: This is one that I get asked a lot about, the ADHD tax. Do you think the ADHD tax is real, Ellyce?
Ellyce: 100%. No question.
Cate: Okay. So for our dear listeners who might not know, the ADHD tax is sort of a colloquial term for when you have ADHD, you lose money on things just by the sheer nature of the way that ADHD can manifest in your life. So think about things like late fees or missed appointments or even just the onions that you put in your refrigerator and then they go in the drawer and you forget that they exist. And then you have to go buy more onions. And so now you're spending more money on onions. I don't know why I'm talking so much about onions. But can you talk a little bit about how that ADHD tax can also impact our relationship with money?
Ellyce: Yeah. So I 100% think it's real because of many of the things you just listed. Like it's just so much harder for us to do a task that would be seemingly simple to someone who is neurotypical. So I think that how that ends up affecting our relationship with money is that it actually kind of breaks our own trust, I think in our ability to manage these things.
And then especially if you're already struggling with this narrative of like, I should be doing this, if I could only do this, like it just like compounds that because now you're like, "Oh my God, I can't even cook the food in my fridge before it goes bad. I can't even remember the onions for this, for this meal." You know, or even like, this happens to me a lot is where I meal plan, I cook the meal, and then I get the ick and I don't want that meal and I can't eat it.
Cate: Every day of my life.
Ellyce: That's frustrating because you're like, "Oh my gosh, I put so much time and energy into like planning this, and then now I don't even want to eat it and I'm going to order takeout and that's frustrating because I was, I was doing the thing that I thought was smart for my finances and now I'm ending up in the same spot anyway." So it kind of, it develops this like, why even try? Like, can I be trusted with my money? Can I be trusted to do these things?
And the first step to moving past that is accepting that the ADHD tax exists and also accepting that you're disabled. I know not everyone resonates with that definition, but for me, like my neurodivergence is debilitating in a day to day sense. Like I struggle to take care of myself. And I think that I've had to like overcome some internalized ableism that I didn't even realize I had, especially coming from working in a disability field.
I still had that like, but you should be able to do this. Or you did this one time in your life. Like you were doing this when you were 20. So why can't you do it now? Like, you know. So that for me was like what really helped me move through that was like fully accepting that I'm disabled. I experienced the ADHD tax and you know, not everyone does. So like the comparison just, it isn't helpful to anyone. It's just like, this is my situation and I'm just going to accept it for what it is and like work within what I have.
(20:42) ADHD and finances in a relationship
Cate: You mentioned something really interesting, which is the question of I have done these things, how can I trust myself? When we're talking about money, not only is there the element of needing to be able to trust ourselves and have confidence in ourselves, but many women with ADHD are also partnered.
Ellyce: Yeah, it's so complicated. Even just like we've talked so much about a relationship to money and then it's like, "Okay, now let's add another person and their relationship to money."
Cate: Yeah, let's add another whole other layer, yeah, and their relationship to money. Like my husband came from a very different monetary background. And you know, it's fine and we've worked through it and we've communicated, but we thought about money differently. We talked about money differently. His family has an entirely different understanding of money than mine did.
And so it was really interesting going into a partnership where one of us had like, he did, spoilers, you know, but like investments and like an IRA and like all of the, I was like, "I don't even know what that is. I've never heard of that in my entire life." And you know, moving into that relationship of how do we even begin the conversation?
Ellyce: The first thing I always recommend is understanding your own money story first, starting to understand maybe why you struggle with certain things, even if that's just like understanding ADHD and how it affects your brain, and then same thing for your partner. Hopefully they also have that kind of baseline understanding. And you know, if you haven't started that work yet, that's something you could also start together. And then once you have that, it's really sharing those stories with each other in very open and honest conversations where really at the beginning, it's just listening and trying to understand where they came from, how they were raised, what they've experienced, what their trauma is. And not trying to make any sort of changes necessarily at this moment, right? It's just like, I want to understand.
Also like observing, observing how your partner acts in different situations. One example for me is my partner experiences a lot of scarcity specifically around grocery shopping, like always wanting to get the absolute best deal on something that's even like a $2 thing because of experiencing some forms of scarcity growing up. But that has ended up affecting us in some ways because we have the money to like not necessarily go to like five different grocery stores to get the best deal. And so sometimes we get in like little arguments about that because I'm like, grocery shopping's so hard for me. Like I just want to do the one store and be done. And then, you know, she's like, "Well, I want to get the best deal." And like obviously both are valid, like, you know.
And so that was something that I brought up of like, "Hey, I noticed that you do this and that's not something that I do. Like can we talk about where that comes from and how important that is to you and things like that?" And then once you're at that point where you feel like you are understanding each other, that's where you can begin to talk about coming to compromises. Now, your styles may mesh and they may work well together. Like it works out. In other situations, you might find that you and your partner have such different approaches and mindsets around money that you're struggling to feel heard or understood or they're getting mad at you for doing something constantly and it's like a constant thing that's building resentment.
And so if that's the case, this is where you kind of want to figure out, "Okay, can we come to a compromise with our two stories? Can we figure out a way that this works for both of us?" And I know this is not what a lot of people want to hear, but in some cases you are just not compatible when it comes to your money and people often don't take this very seriously, I guess like in terms of like a relationship deal breaker. If you're walking away from a relationship for a reason that isn't like infidelity or like something big, you know, if you're just deciding like, "Oh, they want kids and I don't, so this isn't the relationship for me." We often don't think about money in that conversation, but money is one of the biggest reasons for divorce.
And it affects so much because your money is going to affect all those other decisions too, like where you want to live, whether or not you want kids. Do you want to buy a house? Do you not? Like, do you want to travel the world? And then those money traumas can cause so much stress and turmoil in your relationship if you're constantly like budding heads with that. So I think that is something to consider like, can we work through this and compromise or is this just not someone who I'm compatible with and that I ultimately need to walk away from.
(25:05) Ellyce’s advice for starting to think about your money story
Cate: So if there is a dear listener out here who is really resonating with this conversation, really struggling with money and is looking for resources, looking for like, what is the next tangible step that I can take in order to start doing some repair and getting my relationship to money under control, what do you, what do you got?
Ellyce: Okay, well, shameless self-promotion. I'm going to suggest my book.
Cate: This is the moment. Shill, shill away, Ellyce.
Ellyce: All right. So yeah, my book is called "Keeping Finance Personal," and I think that's a great place to start if you have never really thought about your money story. And even if you don't want to purchase the book, like that would be my recommendation of where to start. So, you know, thinking about childhood memories that stick out that have to do with money. So like things that you were told about money, whether that was constantly hearing like, we can't afford that or money doesn't grow on trees or something like that.
Also like what you observed your caregivers doing and saying around money. So like when you weren't part of the conversation, did you witness your caregivers fighting about money? Did you hear them on the phone stressed about paying bills? Like what kind of things did you hear and observe? What kind of things did they say to you and what kind of things were you taught explicitly about money? Taught or not taught, because I grew up in a household that didn't talk about money. So basically the only thing I learned was how to roll coins into those little rolls and take them to the bank.
So yeah, I think that's like a great place to start. And really just focus on understanding how your brain works and then finding the tools and strategies and systems that work with your brain instead of against it. Let go of those neurotypical standards and embrace the weirdness.
Cate: It's not silly if it makes your life easier. ™ ™ ™.
Ellyce: I know, right.
Cate: Ellyce, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. End of the episode.
Ellyce: Yay.
(26:58) Outro and credits
Cate: Anything mentioned in the episode will be linked in the show notes with more resources. Have a question, comment, burning story you'd like to share? Email us at sorryimissedthis@understood.org.
This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood.org is a non-profit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at understood.org/give.
"Sorry, I Missed This" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli and Margie DeSantis.
Video is produced by Calvin Knie and edited by Jessie DiMartino. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show.
Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director. From Understood.org, our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, and Jordan Davidson.
And I'm your host, Cate Osborn. Thank you so much for listening.
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