Burnout isn’t a weakness. It’s a signal that your body needs real rest. Dr. Shauna Pollard is back for the second episode in our “Breaking the Burnout Cycle” series to answer the question: What is rest? Cate and Dr. Pollard talk about what true, restorative rest looks like (hint: it’s not just zoning out on your phone), and how to start taking small, doable steps toward rest when you’re already deep in burnout.
Burnout isn’t a weakness. It’s a signal that your body needs real rest.
Dr. Shauna Pollard is back for the second episode in our “Breaking the Burnout Cycle” series to answer the question: What is rest?
Cate and Dr. Pollard talk about what true, restorative rest looks like (hint: it’s not just zoning out on your phone), and how to start taking small, doable steps toward rest when you’re already deep in burnout.
For more on this topic:
Timestamps:
(00:00) Intro
(02:08) How do you realize that enough is enough and you need to rest?
(03:58) How do we know if the “rest” we’re taking is actually restorative?
(09:10) Feeling guilty or uncomfortable with resting
(15:18) How to decide what to pursue, and what to wait on
(20:14) The relationship between perfectionism, procrastination, and burnout
(23:41) Finding small moments to integrate rest, and other suggestions from Dr. Shauna
(29:07) Outro and credits
For a transcript and more resources, visit Sorry, I Missed This on Understood.org. You can also email us at sorryimissedthis@understood.org.
(00:00) Intro
Cate Osborn: Hi, everybody, I'm Cate Osborn, and welcome back to "Sorry I Missed This," the show where we talk about ADHD and its impact on sex, intimacy, relationships, communication, and more. Today, we're talking about rest, episode two in our Breaking the Burnout Cycle series, with Dr. Shauna Pollard, a psychologist, researcher, ADHD mentor, and advocate. And the reason why we're talking about rest is to learn how to break free of burnout.
You have to learn how to rest and what real restorative rest actually looks like. In this episode, you'll learn how to break down rest into small, practical steps that will start you on your journey to breaking the burnout cycle.
Whenever an episode is particularly difficult for me to approach, I always get curious as to why. One of the things that I discovered while I was prepping for this episode is that I'm really bad at rest.
For me, my rest needs to feel productive in order to feel valid and earned. And you're going to hear Dr. Shauna and I talk about that a lot, and how actual rest, real rest, looks different on different people. Personally, after we recorded this episode, I actually took a lot of the advice that Dr. Shauna gave me and I've started walking in the woods. I've started going on hikes, and you would not believe how much that one change has really positively impacted my mental health. And so, I'm here to tell you that sometimes I learn things from my own podcast, which is pretty cool.
I hope that you take something away and learn something as well. This episode is episode two in our Breaking the Burnout Cycle series. So if you haven't checked out episode one, where we talk about what even is burnout and how does burnout show up in your life, make sure you go check that out. And then make sure that you follow, like, subscribe, do all of that stuff so you can get notified when episode three drops, when we're going to be talking about healing from burnout. I'm so excited to welcome Dr. Shauna back to the show. So without further ado, let's get into episode two, Rest.
(02:08) How do you realize that enough is enough and you need to rest?
Cate: So, following up from episode one, we talked about your battery kind of losing its charge. Your brain and your body are not working together. How do you recognize when it's time to stop doing, when it's time to stop pursuing, when enough is enough and you've got to stop? How do you, how do you know how that works?
Dr. Shauna Pollard: I'll start off by saying it's a tough question. There's no hard and fast rules. I mean, you can almost think about it like the indicator that you need to get gas. And everybody plays that differently. Some people like to push it to the limit and you know, get gas when they pretty much need gas in order to continue driving. Other folks are more like half a tank down, time to get gas. And so I think the same thing goes for burnout. It's best to do it when you're trending toward burnout. And that's easier to know if you've been burnt out before.
Once you've been burned out before, you start to recognize the signs, like I'm moving a little slow, I don't have the same get up and go energy that I used to. I'm losing my passion, I'm losing my excitement. And then like the bodily signs, like you're getting sick more often. And then if you have illnesses or physical health conditions that you're dealing with, you're sort of having more flares, maybe more headaches or migraines or stomach issues. Your body will let you know sometimes when it's time to rest.
Cate: I have to ask now as a hard hitting journalist, what do you do? Are you a quarter tank person or are you a let it get all the way down person?
Dr. Shauna: I've run out of gas before.
I feel like I've done all of the things wrong. I've missed flights, run out of gas, and so that helps, you know, reset. Okay, we never want to do that again. Not really a great experience, but yeah, I'd say 70% of the time, I'm like a half tank girly.
(03:58) How do we know if the “rest” we’re taking is actually restorative?
Cate: So let us imagine, imagine being burned out. Can you imagine such a thing? Crazy. But so we finally get to that point. We finally get to that point of, I have to take a break. I need to rest. I need to do something. So what does rest actually mean? How do we know if we are actually resting or if we are just, you know, sending the email saying, I'll get you the thing tomorrow and really not resting at all?
Dr. Shauna: So I think a key thing is the word restorative. Is what you're doing, does it feel like it's replenishing you, renewing you? Do you feel grounded, relaxed, calm, centered? Those are signs that what you're doing is resting. And your question is great because sometimes when people say they're going to take a break, they do things that aren't actually restorative.
So they go on a vacation where they're like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, doing all the things, going all the places, getting overstimulated, when what they need to be doing is something that is low key, that is low stress, that is calming to their body. So rest is going to look different for everybody. It's so fascinating how different people are. Some people thrive on adrenaline, they like, they feel centered and grounded when they're jet skiing, right?
And that's when they feel calm. Other people want to be in nature and want to hear the birds chirping or waterfalls or have beautiful views. Other people are like, absolutely not, I do not want to be outside in nature. I want to be in the house playing video games or painting or drawing. So I think that's where it comes to knowing yourself. What is it that makes you feel rested? And how can you carve out time to get more of that into your life?
Cate: What I just heard is that going jet skiing will cure my burnout. So I'm going to text my husband immediately and be like, hey, we're going jet skiing this weekend.
Dr. Shauna: Worth a try. And, you know, we're going to dial back the word cure, but we're going to say taking a good step, you know, taking a first step, taking a strong step towards fighting back against burnout.
Cate: Can you talk a little bit more about how somebody might help themselves figure out what type of rest is particularly right for them? Like if you're not good at rest, how do you know what kind you need?
Dr. Shauna: Well, if you're not good at rest, that's actually a start because that means that what you're doing is not restorative, right? So you want to look at those things.
Cate: I love that this whole podcast has turned like asking for a friend. The friend is me. I'm the friend.
Dr. Shauna: You know, it's more vibrant that way, right? So you want to think about what is not restorative. And that gives you a clue. You can write a list of those things down and like, this is not rest. And then maybe you might look at some of the opposites. You can think about past times in your life where you have felt completely rested and completely restored. It could be that it was like five or 10 years ago. It could be when you were 12. If you have to go back that far, then you have to go back that far.
So I would say really try to think about: when were times that you felt completely at peace. And a good way to think about it too is like sleep. All of us know that feeling of non restorative sleep where you go to sleep and you wake up and you're like, did I even sleep? I felt like I was awake the whole night. So we know what it feels like when you're not refreshed after you sleep. And so we want to think about that same experience with like rest.
And even if you can only find a moment when you felt rested, I'm a rocking chair girly. So I love to sit in something that's like rocking me back and forth. And that feels really calm. And I don't always sit in it for like hours at a time. Sometimes it's just 10 minutes. So I invite people to look into starting off with pockets of rest. Because people will be like, oh, but I can't go on vacation or I can't take time off. And I'm like, okay, well, start with what you have. Did you feel rested after you came back from a hike? So it's thinking about those moments where you have felt calm and peaceful and serene, and just trying to build more of those in, even if they're little.
Cate: I'm a hammock girly, so I love that. I have at least like 15 minutes every day where I just hang out in my hammock and it's like the best part of my every single day.
Dr. Shauna: Start where you are. I mean, pull up YouTube, watch a video about self massage. You know, give yourself a massage. Start with what you can, just like finding a therapist, right? Like, it's so terrible that the one thing that is recommended for people who have mental health problems or issues, challenges, is difficult to do when you're having mental health challenges.
Cate: Yeah, it's make a bunch of appointments and send a bunch of emails.
Dr. Shauna: So I'm a fan of like baby steps. So sometimes I'll call myself like the queen of the baby steps because I'm all about baby steps, right? So it might be that you can't do all of those steps in one day, but it might be one day, you shoot an email to three people you know and say, does anyone know a good massage therapist near me? Maybe the day you call them isn't the day you book. When you're overwhelmed and burnt out, start small if that's all you have, and then keep building on that, keep building on that until you can do more.
(09:10) Feeling guilty or uncomfortable with resting
Cate: I'm going to get so vulnerable for a minute. Rest makes me deeply uncomfortable. Rest stresses me out. I don't know about you, dear listener, but when I'm resting, I have, there's like this internal itch that's like, you should be doing something, you're supposed to be doing something.
And I feel that sort of constant need to be productive, that I'm wasting time, you know, if I'm taking a nap or something like that. How do you reconcile the need for rest with that nagging, itchy voice inside you that's like, you should be doing something?
Dr. Shauna: This hits to the heart of what everyone is struggling with, especially folks who are high achievers, especially people who are on the go, is that guilt, that internalized belief that rest is not okay, that we're not allowed to rest. And I think for ADHDers, it's profound and it shows up in a different way because we're always messing up or making mistakes or getting things wrong. And so it feels like we're always coming from behind and trying to play catch up, and it's like we're never caught up.
So I think part of that is to be aware of that voice, that part of you that's saying, you don't get to rest. You should not be resting. It is not okay to rest. In the early stages of learning how to rest, you probably need to block it out because you're not going to be able to change it that fast.
So one of the foundations of how I do therapy is cognitive behavioral therapy. So I always tell people the cognitions actually don't change very quickly. It takes time to change those. For me, sometimes when I hear that voice, what I'll do is I'll put on headphones with like nature sounds or like bilateral music, music that's bouncing back and forth between each ear. And that almost is like something that will distract from the negative thoughts. And so it doesn't get rid of them, it just temporarily takes over them.
And just like you almost have to let that voice be there and rest anyway. And so that part is so hard because that voice is screaming like you're doing the wrong thing. But what we know about rest is that voice isn't correct or accurate all of the time. And rest actually makes you more productive. Taking a break makes you more productive because it gives your brain a chance to digest, to integrate, to center.
And the thing about going, going, going, going, going, going is that often times if you're doing that, you're out of balance, right? So you're overusing your brain and then you're not using your body enough. And so what do you think is going to happen if that keeps going?
Cate: It's probably nothing bad will happen and I will become president of the United States. And that's called deflecting with humor, kids.
Dr. Shauna: So I think it's like, it's the idea of marathon versus sprint. This is your life. And if you go, go, go, go, go, go, go, like your battery is going to burn out.
Cate: I've been reading a lot about rest lately. And one of the things that I've been sort of taking away is that, you know, that sort of idea of the garden, right? There is like a winter time. There is a fallow time. There is a time where stuff isn't growing. And that's okay. And it's sort of like part of the natural cycle.
But see, that little voice in my brain goes, yeah, well, you can also like stagger your crops. Stuff will grow well in the winter if you build a little greenhouse or, you know, like there are ways to keep going. And I'm just, I don't know, I've gotten really curious about that sort of instinct in my own brain and my own body to like find the sneaky way to like build a greenhouse during the winter so I can keep going.
Dr. Shauna: It's hard because no one can tell you what you're really capable of. And there are people who can go, go, go, go and not burn out. And so I think you have to figure out what your own individual capacity is, what your own need is. I think about it as seasons. Like I think the best approach for an ADHDer, if you're going to have periods where you go hard, you have to balance that with a period where you take a break.
Cate: For me too, I think it really lines up with a lot of the experiences of women with ADHD where even like the way that our hormonal cycles impact our ADHD and our ADHD symptoms impact our hormonal cycles, there are times of the month when your ADHD can feel harder to manage, where it can feel worse when you have that shortage of like dopamine and serotonin. I wonder what would happen if, especially as ADHDers, we sort of allowed ourselves that time, that hey, there is going to be even every month there's going to be a time of the month where like you need more rest, you need to take care of your body and what she's doing.
Dr. Shauna: That's why I'm such a fan of learning yourself and learning what you need and learning your natural rhythms and seeing how much you can map things onto that. Because those rhythms do give you that time to rest, do give you that time to like ramp up. And if you can sync yourself to that where it's like, oh, this is the part of my cycle where like dopamine drops. I'm not going to put that many demands on myself. I'm going to take it slow because I know in a week or two, it's going to go back up.
And then the question is, you know, is it so wise to go against the grain? And again, like I said, like only you know that for yourself. You have to figure it out. It's not that like you can never do something, it's that is it wise for me to do this thing now?
Cate: Yeah.
Dr. Shauna: And it's like, I can't do all of the things now. So I actually keep a word document with all the things I want to do for my business. And then I'm always kind of thinking about what makes sense now? What might I have to hold off for three or four or five years? It's not that you can't do it. It's just that like you can't do everything well and execute it all like--or is that the human experience, you know?
(15:18) How to decide what to pursue, and what to wait on
Cate: How do we evaluate those tradeoffs when we're deciding if we need to rest or not? Like, oh, I could go for the big promotion. I could go for starting to write book two, but maybe I should rest instead. How do we evaluate those decisions?
Dr. Shauna: I think the buffet analogy is reasonable here. Imagine that you have one plate and you're trying to figure out all of the things to put on your plate, and only so many things can fit on that plate. And you have to ask yourself, what are you willing to take off the plate so you can put new things on? And in this way, the plate is not like a buffet where you can have like four plates.
Cate: You just get one plate, singular.
Dr. Shauna: Either you are like squeezing all of these things on or using the pile technique or you have to take something off, or you have to say like, you know what, maybe I need to come back next time and try that. And so I always am telling folks, so this is such an ADHD thing. I'll say just because you can do all of the things doesn't mean you should do all of the things.
Okay, say you say yes to being the president. What do you need to stop doing so you can make that happen? What are the ways in which it might be stressful? What are the ways in which you might have to give up some things in order to get there, and even some things that you really enjoy doing or that are really pleasurable. You can be the president, but you have to ask yourself, what would you have to take off of your plate in order to be able to do that?
Cate: It's so funny, like even while I'm having this conversation, my brain is like trying to figure out ways to ignore what you're saying and just like, nope, that's fake. That sounds fake. There's little plates. There's little plates all over. The plates are metaphorical. My brain is literally fighting with me right now trying to convince me like, no, you can still do more. You can still do more.
Dr. Shauna: And I don't say that as a person that's up on the pedestal. I say it as someone that's fighting these same battles that constantly has to have these conversations with myself of like, no, you cannot do that. You are at capacity. You have to prioritize something. You are not superhuman. You are a mere mortal. So I understand the fight.
Cate: Let's say you decide you want to be the president. What does that process look like for you in terms of I'm going to look at what's on my plate realistically, I'm going to, I'm going to have that conversation with myself. What does that actually look like? Like how does that work in action?
Dr. Shauna: Well, similar to what you just did, it often looks like me hearing multiple people saying you're doing too much, or that's too much, or you need to pick one thing, or you need to pick, you know, you need to pair it down. And I'm like, I'm not going to do that. But then often when I am stressed out and when I'm overwhelmed, so some of what I'll do now, when I have a day where I'm like, oh my gosh, like too much is happening. I'll write down a list and I'll call it like, why am I stressed out? And I'll sit there and write all of the things, and then I'm like, it makes sense that you're stressed out. Like you're doing a lot of things.
And so I'm, I track a lot of stuff. I would say that's like my unique quality is I track everything in multiple ways. And so I always keep a list of the things I'm doing throughout the week, throughout the month. And I always engage in a reflective process.
So I use the Passion Planner, which is one of my planners. I'm using Passion Planner, I'm using Sunsama. I have Google Keep. So if we're talking about executive functioning, that strategy of metacognition, the ability to kind of step back, take a bird's eye view. What I loved about the Passion Planner, because it is a lot of things, it's super overwhelming. But what I liked about it in the beginning was that I would just use that monthly review. And I would sit down and review everything that I did that month. And that kind of helped me to get a sense of like, wow, you are doing a lot of things.
And then it asks some questions to kind of provoke thought about like, what do you want to change in the next month? Or like, what are you satisfied with that you did? That metacognitive process, that evaluative process helps me to check in regularly about all of the stuff that I'm doing and then be thinking about like, I think there's a question like, did you do the things that were in line with your priorities, which I feel like is the ADHD problem. Like, maybe we did a lot of stuff, but that stuff wasn't the stuff that mattered the most to us or that we claimed that mattered.
So I would say that's a big one for me, always like reviewing what I'm doing and then evaluating that against what I said that I would do. And one of those might be off. It might be that what I said I wanted to do is no longer important. And I automatically have figured that out and decided to do other things. Or it might be that like I'm engaging in procrastination, procrastivity, and I'm doing a lot of things, but I'm avoiding the thing that really would move the needle forward or that I really said was important to me.
Cate: I think that there's also like that perfectionism aspect of if I just find that ADHD stereotype of if I just find the perfect planner or if I just find the system that works for me, all of my burnout and all of my over-productivity will be solved, but I have the sneaking suspicion that that's probably not true.
(20:14) The relationship between perfectionism, procrastination, and burnout
Cate: So can you talk a little bit about the relationship between prospecting and perfectionism and burnout and how sometimes we can wind up there even if we're trying to solve our burnout problems?
Dr. Shauna: I think with perfectionism, it can hinder in so many ways. Some folks will not start if they feel like they're not going to be able to do it perfectly. That's where perfectionism and procrastination are so linked. And sometimes we get into this freeze state or we get kind of stuck about like, oh. And that's the danger of doing too many things.
The research has shown that multitasking is not as effective as single tasking. Now, I still think multitasking, the research that said you can't multitask, I disagree with that. I think you can multitask, but I do think that sometimes if you're doing too many things, you have too many lanes open, you're not going to be as effective as if you were focusing. So if you're doing too many things at once, you're losing intensity.
I call it a bounce where you bounce back and forth between like one thing that makes you anxious, you work on the other thing, and then you go back and forth, right? I'm always working on multiple things. Like I think I have like six different projects at least in my business right now. But some people would argue I could do better if I just did one of those things. But I find that the bouncing around kind of helps me to be more effective and gives me a break. In this case, perfection is definitely the enemy of good.
I keep both to do lists and I keep a to-done list. I'll be like, okay, this is the thing I did, but like these are the things that you said you were going to do and you didn't. Why? If something is staying on your list over and over and over and over again, there's an emotional challenge there, there's an emotional block. There's something you're avoiding, there's something you're nervous about. It's pushing up against your sense of self. And the more that you can tune into that and catch it, then the more that you can push through it.
So the second layer is now the layer of emotions you have around not doing the thing. So here's the question I like to ask people.
Cate: Okay.
Dr. Shauna: If I was going to give you $100,000 right now to do it, right now--
Cate: Yeah.
Dr. Shauna: --could you do it?
Cate: Yeah, I'd do it for 100 grand.
Dr. Shauna: Okay. Okay. All right. So now that you feel the energy of I can do it, what do you feel like was holding you back? What do you feel like was causing the overwhelm? What I tell people is to do exactly that, to break down what it is that's holding you back from accomplishing the task. And I'm a big fan of a feelings wheel. So I'll say, pull out your feelings wheel, or let's pull up the feelings wheel. And when you write all the emotions associated with the task, and I want you to kind of sit with it and be curious about it.
And then think about what would help you feel less overwhelmed. It might be the need to ask for help or support, which is tough for ADHDers because we put things off until the last minute. And then when we need to ask for help, we're embarrassed because then people are going to know that we put it off to the last minute and then we're going to get judged for that. Or because it's so last minute, there's nobody that can help us because no one's at work. It's just us at 2 a.m.
So it might mean like figuring out who can help me with this. And if it's earlier on in the process, then there's the strategy of chunking, of breaking it down until it doesn't feel overwhelming anymore and starting with that piece and then continuing to go.
(23:41) Finding small moments to integrate rest, and other suggestions from Dr. Shauna
Cate: I do have a really embarrassing story before we wrap up. I do want you to know that I smugly, I smugly took a nap today because I was like, I'm going to go to my podcast episode on rest and I'm going to tell Dr. Shauna that I took a nap. And I, that was the only reason I gave myself permission to rest today was because I wanted to brag to you about it. So maybe, I don't know, dear listener, maybe that's a good idea. Just have a friend that you can brag about resting to and then inspire yourself to rest a little bit more.
Dr. Shauna: How did you feel afterwards? How did, you know, how was it for you?
Cate: Do you ever take a nap that's like so good and then you wake up and you're like, what year is it? Like that is what happened to me. It was like raining. It was a really like rainy day here and it was so cozy and I had my dog and my dog doesn't usually cuddle with me, but she came up and she cuddled with me and it was just the best. It was so good for my heart and my soul. And I was like, okay, I guess there's maybe something to pausing and resting sometimes.
Dr. Shauna: And you bring up a good point. You want to think about the fact that there are different parts of you. So there is this little feisty part that's like, you can't tell me what to do. I'm going to get a second plate like--
Cate: All the time, yeah.
Dr. Shauna: --right? And then there's this other part that's like, well, you know, maybe there's something to it, right? And so just owning all of those parts of you that like, you know, when you think about resting, that little feisty part is going to be like, for what? And then that other part of it might be curious, try it out and see, right? Try out, you know, you can spend a month integrating more moments of rest and then see how you feel.
Cate: The thing that's super annoying is that I've found that even as I've slowed down a little bit, I'm like, oh, I do feel better. It's that, you know, it's that I'm going for a stupid walk for your stupid mental health energy where it's like, it works every time. Every time it works and every time I'm so surprised and then I'm like annoyed. I'm just like, ugh. I don't know, I get so, I'm such a goofy pile of contradictions sometimes I feel like. And I'm like, is that, is that the ADHD or is that just me? I don't know. And sometimes I think it's hard to tell.
Dr. Shauna: Or is that the human experience, you know?
Cate: Dr. Shauna Pollard, as we close today's episode two of the burnout cycle, do you have any last thoughts on rest or advice? You know, just what do you got to close?
Dr. Shauna: I would invite people to find moments to integrate rest, little moments. 30 seconds to just close your eyes and be still. One app that I like to use with my clients is the UCLA Mindful App. So UCLA has put a lot of mindfulness resources on there. And so like a mindfulness meditation exercise that's good.
A body scan is always great. You can find those anywhere, just type body scan into your favorite search engine. And what it will have you do is scan through the body and just tune in. Notice the tension, notice the relaxation, notice what's happening. And even though it doesn't ask you to relax, just tuning in will usually help you to relax.
I think I really want everyone to just kind of be thoughtful, be reflective about what helps you rest, and to know that like that voice that says you always need to be going, you always need to be doing something. I mean, I'm a psychologist, so I'm going to bring it there. But I would be thinking about where you got that voice from. Was that something you learned from childhood, from your parents, from your family? Is that a message that's being promoted on your job?
And then I want you to start to familiarize yourself with people who think differently, people who are all about rest. Find your friends or your family members or hang out with an elder. Hang out with someone who's over the age of 65. I feel like they know how to rest. So if you are like Katie and you're like, rest, no, we're not doing that. Maybe add some friends in who are like, absolutely, we're resting, we're napping, we're taking breaks. And be curious about other ways to be, other ways to experience life. There's multiple ways to approach it.
The other thing is to think about tech free rest. So be intentional about taking breaks without technology. Walk with no headphones sometimes, stand in a line and resist the urge to pull out your phone and entertain yourself, wash dishes silently. If you have to start with one to two minute breaks, start there, but then work your way up to 5, 10, 20, 30, an hour. And get out in nature if you're open to that. Like it really can be restored.
Cate: I recently found out that I really like hiking. Like I was, I've never been a nature girly. I've never been like, oh, I want to go outside and like commune with the earth. And I went on a hike and I was like, this is nice. It's just kind of like walking around and you don't have to like, you can go at your own pace. You can look at cool rocks and cool sticks and cool bugs. It was pretty awesome.
Dr. Shauna: See, look at you, you're becoming a rest expert.
Cate: One last question before we go. Do you have any resources that you recommend, books that you recommend, anything that we can link in the show notes just to help people get started on this restful journey along with me? We're going to be on this one together, dear listener.
Dr. Shauna: A book I have read is "Full Catastrophe Living" by Jon Kabat-Zinn. That's probably a good one to read. And then I don't know that this one talks about rest, but I like the book "Your Money or Your Life." And I think that helps kind of like put things into perspective.
Cate: Dr. Shauna, thank you so much for being here for this episode. We will see you again for episode three.
Dr. Shauna: I'll see you for the next one. Rest up.
(29:07) Outro and credits
Cate: Thank you for listening! Anything mentioned in the episode will be linked in the show notes, with more resources. Have a question, comment, burning story you'd like to share? Email us at SorryImissedthis@understood.org.
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"Sorry, I Missed This" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli and Margie DeSantis.
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And I'm your host, Cate Osborn. Thank you SO much for listening!