ADHD and kink might seem like an unexpected pairing, but for a lot of people, they go hand in hand. From rituals that help with focus to play that taps into the need for stimulation, BDSM can be more than just fun — it can be a real tool for regulation and connection.
Join health and science journalist Danielle Elliot as she investigates the rise of women recently diagnosed with ADHD. Listen to Climbing the Walls now.
ADHD and kink might seem like an unexpected pairing, but for a lot of people, they go hand in hand. From rituals that help with focus to play that taps into the need for stimulation, BDSM can be more than just fun — it can be a real tool for regulation and connection.
In this episode, host Cate Osborn chats with author and forensic sexologist Stefani Goerlich about how BDSM can actually support ADHD brains by offering structure, sensory input, and clear communication.
Related resources
Timestamps
(02:46) The broad umbrella of ‘kink’
(04:16) Focusing on BDSM in particular, and breaking down the acronym
(08:38) Kink is always relational, only sometimes sexual
(09:48) Why might someone gravitate towards kink/BDSM?
(12:30) Common kink myths
(15:44) Power exchange, and consent as foreplay
(16:32) The benefits of BDSM/kink
(18:24) How kink can help with claiming agency
(21:10) How negotiated arrangements can take some of the strain off executive function challenges
(23:39) What to do when one partner is kinky, and one is not so much
For a transcript and more resources, visit the Sorry, I Missed This show page on Understood.org.
We love hearing from our listeners! Email us at sorryimissedthis@understood.org.
Cate: Hi everybody, and welcome back to "Sorry, I Missed This," the show where we talk about ADHD and all things sex, intimacy, communication, and relationships. And boy, are we going to be talking about relationships today, specifically BDSM relationships with my guest Stefani Goerlich. Now, if you don't know who Stefani Goerlich is, I am so excited to introduce her to our listenership. She is a sex therapist. She is a sexologist, she has multiple degrees, she has written multiple books, and her focus is supporting clinicians working with kinky people. So, she is an just all-time expert on all things kink, and I admittedly am a huge fan.
People ask me all the time how I got my start doing this work. Why specifically do I talk about ADHD and kink? Why do I talked about ADHD and BDSM? Isn't that weird? Isn't it strange? Isn't a little salacious? And the truth is that for me, it's not that salacious. For me, it's not even that exciting. BDSM, kink, however you want to think about it, is another tool in the toolbox that helps me support my neurodivergency.
And the more that I learned, and the more that I delved, and more that I got interested in how my brain and body connection works, and the tools and supports that are out there in order to allow me to live my best and most fulfilling and passionate life, I realized that kink is a really, really good fit for me. But it can be really hard to broach that conversation, especially if you are new to kink, or you have a partner who thinks, oh, you know, it's all 50 shades of gray, that kind of thing.
And so, I'm so thrilled to bring Stefani Goerlich onto the podcast today to talk about kink and BDSM from a destigmatizing standpoint, from the standpoint of the science and what the research shows, and how useful and incredible kink and BDSM can be for the ADHD brain.
Now I do want to say right off the bat that I'm not saying that if you have ADHD that automatically means that you're kinky, or if you had ADHD and you're not kinky, that you are doing something wrong. It's just one of the myriad tools that we have available to us as humans with varied and diverse likes and interests, and dislikes. So, this is one of those episodes, dear listeners, where I encourage you to take what you like, leave what you don't, but please enjoy this conversation with Stefani Goerlich and I as we break down the B, the D, the S, and the M, and all things kink.
Stefani Goerlich, welcome to the podcast.
Stefani: Thank you so much for having me.
Cate: So, Stefani, let's just jump into the sort of heart of the conversation. So, when we talk about kink, what topics or like activities are we actually talking about?
Stefani: You know, when we say the word kink, it's actually a really broad umbrella. Because when I'm teaching or testifying or, you know, talking on a podcast, the way I always explain it is that kink is anything that's not normative for its specific place and specific type. And those are really important because cultural differences can impact what we think of as kinky, right? There are 21st-century cultures around the world that are very, very comfortable with certain forms of non-monogamy. That's not the norm in America.
So, in America, it could be considered kinky, but in other cultures, it wouldn't be, even though we're all alive and moving through the world at the same time. But also, our norms change over time, so things that were once considered deviant or kinky might shift into that completely vanilla and mundane category. So, when I talk about kink, it's a really broad list. It is anything that falls outside of the norm for your time and your place.
Cate: The example that I always like to use to relate to it is sort of the neurodivergent umbrella, right? There are tons of different neurodivorgencies that exist in the world. But this podcast, in particular, we talk about ADHD. And so, today, specifically, we are going to sort of narrow the umbrella, narrow the focus, to just talk about BDSM. Stefani, would you to define what BDSM is for our dear listeners?
Stefani: You know I would. It's my favorite Swiss army knife acronym because it actually contains three smaller concepts within it. And if you get really creative, it can contain more than that. But generally speaking, we think of three, right? B and D, which is bondage and discipline. So, bondage in discipline is the exchange of control. That can mean control of movement, control of speech, control of behavior. And you can do that with a partner or you can do it by yourself.
I've had colleagues and clients and just people I know in the world, who aren't in relationships, but that still create rituals and protocols and practices for themselves that help them maintain a headspace that they enjoy. So, that's bondage and discipline, right? It's exchange of control, and it can even be an exchange of control with yourself.
The one that most people think of, that we see most represented in pop culture, is DS, dominance and submission. Now, DS contains multitudes, right? There are all different levels and varieties and flavors within DS, but at its most basic, when we're talking about dominance and submission, we're talking about an exchange of authority. So, that can get kind of blurry because we think control and authority are the same thing. But control is restrictions on again, movement speech behavior. Authority is decision making authority.
Authority is if you and I are arguing about what we're going to have for lunch after we're done recording the podcast, do we need to come to a consensus? Or does one of us have the final decision-making authority? And that can be limited to specific moments in time, like the bedroom only. It can be limited to specific topics like wardrobe or sexual behaviors. Or it can be 24-7, all decisions go through the authority holder, through the dominant. That is what we see most often represented and most often represented poorly in pop culture.
And then the one that seems to evoke the strongest emotion for folks, SM, sadism and masochism. Although really when you look at the research, calling it sadomasochism makes the most sense because while you have people that are more dominant leaning and more submissive leaning and a smaller group in the middle that might like to switch back and forth between those two, with SM we tend to see a lot more fluidity. Most people that like to receive intense sensation, also like to give it to a certain extent, and vice versa.
And you noticed I said sensation. Often when we think about S and M or SM, we think of pain. And as a clinician, I try to avoid that because coming back to what's normal for a time and a place, pain is a very subjective word and pain is very culturally specific word. So, I always frame it as giving and receiving sensation. It might be really, really intense sensation. It might not be a sensation I would personally like to experience for myself, but it's negotiated, it's consensual, and it can take a lot of different forms.
So, all of these, if you pictured like a three-bubble sort of Venn diagram, they can each exist independently. They can each kind of blur in themselves, or people can do all three. It's very much a mix-and-match sort of world out there with these three broad categories of exchange of control, exchange of authority, and exchange of sensation.
Cate: Yeah, and it's infinitely customizable. That's the other thing that I wish more people knew about BDSM in particular, is that it is very much take what you like, leave what you don't, you know? And so, especially when we talk about the applications of BDSM to the neurodivergent relationship, I think it's fascinating because what we see are places where we can edit and we can impact our sensory input, right?
Are you a person who gets overstimulated? Great, take away sensation. Are you a person who needs more stimulation? Great, add, add more, right? Are you the person who struggles with executive function? Like, great, do you know what a Dom is great for? Helping you remember to take your meds and drink your water, right? As long as you consensually negotiate it. And so, there's a lot of these really customizable pieces, and that's what gets me really excited about the topic. It's like, no, no it can be for whoever needs it.
Stefani: The most important thing is kink is always relational but it is only sometimes sexual and I think that the vast majority of us get that backwards and we assume that kink as sexual first and that makes it really hard to talk about in like everyday life because we don't talk about bedroom behavior in everyday life. Like I'm not in the lunchroom at my office discussing the kind of, I don't know jobs my partner's like, right? We don't do that. So, it feels inappropriate to discuss power differentials in our relationships, but those are not the same thing. The way that we structure our relationship dynamic could have implications for the kind of sex and intimacy that we engage in, but it doesn't have to.
And so, I think the very first thing is to really start to shift the conversation around BDSM and kink to recognize that it is a relationship style, not a kind of set. And once we sort of as a culture, as a community, start to get on board with that, it becomes a lot easier than to have these other conversations.
Cate: So, why might someone gravitate towards kink or BDSM?
Stefani: I mean, that's like the big question, right? We're still trying to like pin down the one origin story for all kinky people, and there really isn't one. What we know is that a good solid plurality of kinky people will say that it's an innate part of who they are. That there was a point in their sexual development, usually between like eight and twelve, where as an adult, this is an important distinction, as an adult, they can look back on their childhood and go, "Oh, oh yeah, that was the moment. That was it."
I always clarify that as somebody that, you know, has worked with child survivors, that if I have an eight to 12-year-old that's telling me they're kinky, I am not going towards affirming care, I'm going towards intervention. But, for adults looking back on their childhood, and often it is related to play; it's related to something very innocent, very sweet. I hear vintage Peter Pan, the Disney movie, like the kidnapping of Tiger Lilly scene, does it for a lot of people.
I've heard playing cops and robbers way more often than necessary. Like "I got tied to the flagpole at recess and I went, 'Oh,'"achievement unlocked, right? So, in the mid to high 40s, the percentage of kinky people can look back retroactively and find a moment in their normal childhood development where they realized that they were aroused by something that we would now as adults call kinky.
Another maybe high 30s to mid 30% of kink people say they had a similar moment in adulthood, that they introduced to something by a partner, they saw something in a movie, and they might not have had the words or the vocabulary or the life experience to describe it prior, but once they saw it, once they had that sort of door-unlocked moment, they realized that it was something that had always been missing from their lives or something that adds a lot of value to their lives.
And then a very small percentage, like single digits, will say that it's connected to a less pleasant experience in childhood, so some sort of traumatic event. Usually, we see that more with our fetishes, right? With our people that have a very specific object fetish or a very specific behavior fetish, but that is by no means the majority of kinky people. Most people, it's normal adolescent development or a pleasant discovery in adulthood.
Cate: And it's interesting that you brought up that sort of like, something tragic happened, because when we look at the numbers, it is a very small percentage, but that is a big misconception that I don't know if you do, but I run into a lot in my work is like, there must be something terribly wrong with this person, right?
So, I was wondering, like, what are some of the more like frustrating misconceptions about kink that you face in your practice?
Stefani: Well, number one is exactly that, right? It's the idea that kinky people are somehow traumatized or broken and that they're acting out that brokenness. That's not statistically true. We know from research that kinky people don't report a trauma history at a rate greater than the general population. The experiences of trauma tend to be about the same whether you're vanilla or kinky.
What we do know is that kanky people are more likely to have a PTSD diagnosis. Which is fascinating because the question becomes, is that because they're better able to communicate their experiences, they're more open about their trauma histories, or is it because their clinicians are seeing the kink? Having that bias you just mentioned and giving them a higher sort of diagnostic label than they otherwise would if they weren't kink identified. So, that's number one, the trauma myth.
Number two for me, it kind of ties right into that and that's this idea of almost like personality disorders, right? This idea that dominant people are narcissistic or they're anti-social and they're using this to like sublimate some evil intention, and meanwhile, all of our, the missing people are, you know, dependent personalities or histrionic or they have something which is their co-dependent, right? There's this desire to label and pathologize, especially that power exchange component, that authority component.
Then, again, isn't more now in any of the research and that research has been done. We've looked at personality types with kinky people, and it's just, it's not there. But for a lot of people, it kind of intuitively makes sense based on what they see in pop culture, right? Like clearly, the woman that's incredibly domineering and wants to micro-manage her partner's entire life must be narcissistic, right? It's not how the world actually works, but it's a huge myth.
Cate: The number one rant that I have is, because I tend to identify more as a submissive. I think across the board, I'm more of a switch, but in general, I like that role, right? That's just comfortable for me. And people are always like, "Oh, so you're a weak. You're like a little pushover." And I was like, "No, I am wildly successful in my life. I have so many cool things going on for me, I have all of this pressure. I've got a book coming out, I've got this podcast, I got all of the stuff that's going on."
"And so you know what's really nice is at the end of the day, I go home and somebody tells me what's for dinner and I don't have to think about it." It's like, "No, I'm not a pushover. I'm tired."
Stefani: You know, Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy wrote these phenomenal books, "The New Topping" and "The New Bottoming" books. They have this great concept that power exchange only works when you have power to exchange. And that's what differentiates cake from abuse, right? In an abusive relationship, it's not a submissive partner. It's a dominated partner, and those are very different because a submissive partner has the power in her life or his life or their life that you're describing, and they're choosing to give a part of it over to somebody that they trust.
Cate: So, how do we break the stigma and sort of talk frankly and ethically about like kinky BDSM topics without it turning into 50 shades of gray, which, for the record, is a very bad example. We agree, we agree, 50 shades of gray, maybe not?
Stefani: I don't think people realize how hot the ethical part of things is.
Cate: Right? Right?
Stefani: Like they think about negotiation as this very like dry and formal process when really it's sexting and foreplay. It's mutual fantasy creation.
Cate: And it's interesting, too, because some folks, like especially in my work that I see, like the combo platter of ADHD and autistic folks, sometimes they need that, like, "We're just gonna sit down, we're gonna run through a list, we're going to talk about it very specifically" because their communication differences thrive in that really clinical setting.
But then other like ADHD folks, a lot of times they want that sort of, like exciting foreplay, right? That like building the fantasy together. Kink is just D&D, you heard it here first, folks. You also do kinky science, which is so interesting and so fascinating, oh my gosh.
So, I'm interested, what does your research show about the benefits of BDSM in relationships?
Stefani: So, we have found tons of benefits. Actually, one of the things that I put in my book for couples is literally just a list of all the benefits we know of. And it almost would be easier to list the things we know kink doesn't do than it does because it's building a sense of relationship closeness. It's reducing stress levels. It's inducing a flow state. It's lowering blood pressure and cardiovascular disease risks. It's so many things that it's almost impossible to list them all.
But what we know is that there are holistic mind, body, and relational benefits to engaging in ethical, negotiated, consensual kink with a partner. And so, I put that list in the book because often, you know, the vanilla partners that I work with, because of the depictions that we've talked about, right, they're problematic depictions, they're not great portrayals of kink. They often suspect something from their kinkier partners. They wanna know, well, what do you want from this? What are you trying to do to me? What are you trying to get out of this?
And so, I show them the list of the book, and I'm like, what does sex do for you right now? Like what of this, like what do you see that you recognize in your own life? And then it just becomes, those are also the benefits of kinky play. It's not that kink does these other things over here that we don't talk about that are like secret and nefarious. It's that any form of pleasurable, consensual, sexual, and intimate relationship is going to provide a lot of benefits. And so, that becomes a really nice conversation starter when we're trying to get on the same page about, "Well, what do you get out of this? And what do you think I'm going to get out of this?"
Cate: Yeah, and another thing that I think we probably both talk about a lot is the idea that kink isn't an evidence-based practice, so it's not therapy, right? Like, there can be therapeutic elements within kink practices, but it's is not a substitute for therapy. So, what are some ways in which kink can help us navigate through big emotions, tough situations? Discuss.
Stefani: I do have colleagues that are doing that research, right? Because the way that something becomes an evidence-based practice is to gather evidence about the practice. So, saying that kink is not an evidence-based practice is not a dismissal of it, right? It's just an acknowledgement of where we are in the scientific process with it. But right now, what we know is that the kink community and kink culture is correlated with lower rates of non-consensual behavior and lower rates of sexual assault. They tend to have stronger communication skills. They tend to have healthier senses of self in terms of self-esteem and ability to advocate for themselves.
So, when we talk about kink being beneficial for people, we don't mean sort of the movie stereotype of, "Oh, I'm sad, tie me up and spank me so I can cry." And that could be a part of it for some people. Shout out to my masochists. I'm not devaluing that. I'm just saying that's not what we mean when we talk about it as a healing modality. But those, again, the communications, the interpersonal, the internal skills, that's where kink practices can be really beneficial for people because they're not swimming uphill.
In most of modern dating culture, it's unusual for a woman to be very, very explicit about "This is what I want, this is what I don't want, this when I want it, this is when I don't, this who I'm gonna do it with and this is who I'm not." And in general, average 32 year old woman on Bumble puts all of that out there, she's actually probably going to get a lot of grief from guys that take offense at that or that find it domineering or bossy or bitchy or any number of things. But that's the norm in the kink community, and that's praised in the kink community.
So, what they end up doing is they end up building these communication skills and receiving positive validation for being assertive, clear, sex-positive, and claiming a sense of agency around their bodies, their relationships, and all of that is naturally gonna carry over to other parts of their lives too. So, when we talk about the benefits of kink, that's what I'm thinking of again. And again, it comes back to that relational piece, right? Like they're learning good relational skills, whether it's negotiating with themselves, whether it is setting clear, firm, solid boundaries with other people, those are all skills that we don't necessarily get a lot of opportunities to practice outside of the kink world.
Cate: Yeah. And especially again, that sort of tie into ADHD, one of the big places where I see this being so helpful and so useful is for women who find themselves in that people pleaser mindset. Like it happens to so many people with ADHD, where you're just constantly like, yes, yeah, yeah. I'm going to bend over backwards to like, you know, move the earth, whatever. And so, as we get better at negotiating and communicating our wants and our needs, it becomes easier to break the sort of people-pleasing cycle. And that's something that I found even in like my own kink practices.
For ADHDers in particular, I like to frame discussions of kink around sort of outsourcing my executive functioning. Can you talk a little bit how power dynamics or other negotiated arrangements might help take some of that strain and load off for people who do struggle with executive functioning?
Stefani: Yeah, absolutely. And I want to start by saying that this is not necessarily a benefit that exists exclusively for more submissive type people. You gave the example earlier, of a dom is really great for making sure you drink and take your medication. And that's true. But also a submissiveness can be too. It's all about how you frame it up. For a dominant, doing those things, having those reminders, implementing rewards and punishment systems can be a form of caretaking for their submissives.
For a dominant who's got ADHD or a dominant whose struggles with some executive functioning, a submissive can do that as an act of service, right? It becomes a way of not nagging or reminding because I have yet to meet a dom who's like, "Yes, can you please nag me to drink my water every 30 minutes?" But the submissive that just brings a cup of water and quietly puts it on the desk next to them. It's a very different dynamic from the dominant going, "I'm gonna sit and watch and you're gonna drink your water." But it's the exact same behavior, it's just framed up as an act of service versus an act of caretaking.
And so, things like that can be really helpful. And I mean, there's a million different ways that people in all sorts of dynamics do that all the time, egalitarian and like, you know, vanilla couples do this too, we just don't necessarily always put a name to it. And i think that when there's, a more explicit power dynamic and a more negotiation around tasks and behaviors and household responsibilities, it can become easier for everybody to play to their strengths, receive support for the areas where they're less strong and still feel really comfortable and happy in whatever form that takes.
Cate: In your book, "Sprinkles on Top," you wrote a lot about desire discrepancies, like what to do when one partner is kinky and the other is, you know, not so much, like, "What if I really want to try this, but my partner doesn't?" Do you have any advice for anyone who might be listening and thinking like, "Wow, that actually sounds kind of nice?"
Stefani: I mean, besides read my book, which sounds a little mercenary.
Cate: Well, honestly, it's an amazing book, so go read it.
Stefani: You know, I would say talk about where your head's at without necessarily feeling pressured to bring the language of kink into it at first, right? Because that can feel really vulnerable for the more kinky person to say, you know this is something that's a part of myself that I've always wanted, that I haven't felt comfortable telling you before. Because of the more negative portrayals in pop culture, it can be intimidating or even a little threatening for a vanilla person to hear if they're not really familiar and comfortable with kink.
So, it's OK to introduce the subject of what you need without necessarily being super precise in your language right away. It's OK to say, "I've noticed that I really struggle with this, and I noticed that you seem to be better at it. And I'm wondering if maybe we could have a conversation about making that a more like sort of formal or more like explicit part of a relationship." And if it's something more directly sexual, you can talk about the sensory experiences, right? The sight, sound, taste, touch, feel that you're going for and describe the sensory experience that you are wanting.
And then use that as a jumping off point to start talking about specific activities or specific dynamics or specific behaviors that you might have in mind. I would almost say starting from an outcome. This is where I wanna get to. This is what would make me really happy. This is when I'm asking you to figure out with me. And then, as a part of your conversation around that, introducing the idea of kink can be really helpful.
Cate: One of the things that I just love and admire about your work, I'm just going to fangirl for a second and be like, "Ha ha, I've trapped you here. Now you have to listen to me." It's just the repeated themes of empathy and honest communication. Like at its core, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about empathy and open, honest communication, so across the board, do you have just any best practices that you can share for opening those conversations in a way, you kind of just answered that, but do you have any last thoughts about that?
Stefani: So, one of the things that we know both from research and from just observation is that kinky people tend to be very, very in touch with their partners. I mentioned flow state. We've actually seen, we have measured, and by we, I mean the science and BDSM research team, not me and my research, but they're awesome. You should check them out.
They have actually measured hormone changes in people engaging in like an impact scene together. Even if they don't know their partner, even if they're not in love with their partner, we literally, our bodies change based on the reactions we see in our partners and based on the moments that are not sexual that we share with our partners.
And so, starting from that place of knowing that you are deeply connected and that the choices that you make influence each other literally at a brain and cell level, even when both of your clothes are on and nobody's touching each other, is a really, really powerful thing to recognize. Because I think often we assume that the closest, best, fastest way to intimacy is through sexual touch, and it can be. But really, it's that eye contact. It's that conversation. It is that being deeply attuned to our partner's reactions that make our brains light up too.
And so, if you start with a place of, you know, as you said, deep empathy for your partner, of really wanting them to be happy, wanting them to feel good, wanting them to feel confident, that absolutely carries over into your own emotional state, your own reactions, your own physiology too. When we do for our partners, in non-sexual ways, when we build intimacy in words and gestures and eye contact, we have a physiological response for ourselves, and that's something that most people don't realize. So, the best way to get to that point is to start by really cultivating just closeness, relational closeness, and going from there.
Cate: Stefani, thank you so much for being here. I am such a fan. Thank you for sharing your expertise and your wisdom. And dear listeners, we'll see you again soon. Bye.
Thank you for listening. Anything mentioned in the episode will be linked in the show notes with more resources. Have a question, comment, burning story you'd like to share? Email us at sorryimissedthis@understood.org. This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at Understood.org/give.
"Sorry, I Missed This" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli and Margie DeSantis. Video is produced by Calvin Knie. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Samiah Adams is our supervising producer. Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director. For Understood.org, our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, and Seth Melmick. And I'm your host, Cate Osborn. I'll see you next time.
Cate: I never know how to end the podcast. I've been doing this for like two years and I still don't have like a good, solid outro.
Stefani: I like the vibe.